> take the good devs with you
> Tell them exactly why you're all leaving
From many years in film and game development where crunch times were long and brutal, I totally understand (first hand, from experience) how bad this can get. I sympathize with the frustration.
However, be very very careful with these two bits of advice. The first one (taking people with you) is sometimes illegal, and even where it’s not, it will not be taken lightly, it could lead to legal and harsh retaliatory consequences that will not be pleasant.
The second one is also dangerous. Things you say when you leave can follow you out the door to your next job. You probably do not want your reference checks, or just people who know each other, to be spreading rumors that you’re combative and troubled regardless of the fact that poor management is at fault.
The better advice IMO is to find the better job and move on quietly. Trying to teach the company a lesson is very unlikely to work.
> It's illegal to poach people (make them work for your company)
In most of the world (and where I live) it isn't, on the contrary having anti-poaching policies is illegal and resulted in a huge anti-competitive/wage-supression lawsuit:
I was in the defendant class for one of these Silicon Valley film anti-poaching lawsuits. :) And I agree that companies, including the one I worked for, shouldn’t be able to agree to prevent hiring from each other. The main problem this caused was it made it harder for any individual to leave one company for another, with no poaching involved, and because of that (it was argued) it suppressed the general competitiveness and salaries of the employees.
Do keep in mind that this case (companies agreeing they won’t hire from each other) is a bit different from an angry employee leaving and soliciting some friends to go with him to a new company. Like I said, it might be perfectly legal, and yet still cause you serious trouble if you do it. Some people have ended up a lot more frustrated after leaving because of things they did on the way out. It can work out well if you’re really in a position to start your own company and fight like the Traitorous Eight, but for most devs who just want a job, making huge waves on exit is pretty dangerous. Don’t take my word for it though.
I agree that it is normally wise to keep in mind the power disparity and interconnection between individuals and corporations. (And that not because something is legal you will have a good time)
> but for most devs who just want a job, making huge waves on exit is pretty dangerous
Yeah, it is easier (both in effort and in future prospects) to keep a low profile. Though I was focusing on legality/acceptability of poaching/leaving as a group.
Also is the word here really "illegal" or more like a breach of contract? I am not saying doing the opposite of what you signed is legal per-se, my point is that I am not sure if there are actual written laws saying you can't poach.
At least in my experience people agree to that, and it's usually when exiting a company, not when joining. As in "you agree not to initiate poaching up until 12 months after leaving the company".
> As in "you agree not to initiate poaching up until 12 months after leaving the company".
Where I live that can be legal with the following caveat (same for non-compete):
- They have to pay you (a consideration) when signing such agreement
- It must be for a definite period of time. (Unsure about how much time is legal though)
- The only penalty for breach would be to return the consideration.
Where I live most non-competes/non-poaching agreements would be unenforceable since they don't meet the previous criteria. (Unenforceable clauses are normally refereed to as illegal though)
Yeah, many times. I'm always joining a new contract with at least some people from the previous ones. Never had anyone care in the slightest - it's not like the person would've stayed anyways. Why is it their business at all? The person doesn't belong to them.
I’m not certain but this sounds suspiciously different from what you suggested above. Joining a new job that just happens to have people from a previous one is completely different from soliciting co-workers to terminate their current contracts early, which is what you implicitly suggested above.
If the job is this bad, the other people are most likely going to be leaving too, all by themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if they activated their LinkedIn already. Asking them to go work together is nothing wrong.
It’s not safe to assume that is true from your employer’s perspective. You can assert your opinion, but acting on it can and does lead to real and severe consequences for some people. Be careful out there!
I could simply ask the people... At the project I talked about in my original comment we openly discussed looking for new contracts during the standup. Pretty hard to miss it for all sides.
Does anyone even check references anymore in tech? My last two jobs haven't. The most current one didn't even ask for any. I figured that they realized that candidates won't list someone who will provide a bad reference, so it's a waste of time.
Employment and salary verification reference checks are common, I still receive them for ex employees of a small company started and sold years ago. It happened at my last few jobs in tech. BTW, they don’t have to ask you for any, all they have to do is call the company listed on your resume.
There are also informal “reference checks” though, where people who know each other talk about you, and even these are just one of many ways that your reputation can follow you. Leaving behind something very noteworthy like telling your bosses off and taking other employees with you is a good way to have people sharing stories about you.
I hadn't had any references checked, much less even requested in probably a decade... that is, until my current job. So some do still do it, but apparently not many.
From many years in film and game development where crunch times were long and brutal, I totally understand (first hand, from experience) how bad this can get. I sympathize with the frustration.
However, be very very careful with these two bits of advice. The first one (taking people with you) is sometimes illegal, and even where it’s not, it will not be taken lightly, it could lead to legal and harsh retaliatory consequences that will not be pleasant.
The second one is also dangerous. Things you say when you leave can follow you out the door to your next job. You probably do not want your reference checks, or just people who know each other, to be spreading rumors that you’re combative and troubled regardless of the fact that poor management is at fault.
The better advice IMO is to find the better job and move on quietly. Trying to teach the company a lesson is very unlikely to work.