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Russia expected to ditch GLONASS for Loran in Ukraine invasion (gpsworld.com)
38 points by throw0101a on Feb 18, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 28 comments


Interesting but I don’t understand why Russia would disturb/spoof its own Glonass system. What’s the point? EU has the Galileo and USA GPS, so why not use Glonass?


> EU has the Galileo and USA GPS, so why not use Glonass?

There's a good chance that the non-Russians in the area do not have Loran equipment. Further, all GNSS systems basically use the same set of frequencies (E1/L1, L2, E5/L5):

* https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/GNSS_signal

* https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/GLONASS_Signal_Plan

So they can jam these small number of frequencies, and take out their own system (along with everyone else's), but they are ready for this, and the opponent(s) may not be.


They could also just turn it off. Or change encryption so it will work for Russia but not others.


They'd have to turn it off selectively for just that region, as they may want to keep it working in other places (Siberia, Vladivostok).

Maybe be easier to just set up some jammers around the area of operations.

Jamming would also probably take out all the other GNSS systems, which could be an operational benefit to them if they're better prepared; which is probably why they run a Chayka/Loran system in the first place—as does China:

* https://www.gpsworld.com/china-expanding-loran-as-gnss-backu...


All three systems are incredibly easy to jam. The signals from the satellites are very low power by the time the reach Earth, and in fact are below the noise floor. Recievers use processing gain tricks in order to see them at all.

I don't remember the RF energy decay rate but there is a X^2 term in there, which means the energy decays exponentially with distance. So a jammer 10 miles away doesn't have to try very hard to drown out a satellite 13000 miles away.


That's why RF loss equations use dB instead of ratios or percentage. GPS is anti-jam in nature due to it's spread spectrum method but a wideband jammer could make it difficult for a receiver to build the link. Jamming mitigation includes things like using highly directional antennas and smart receivers that can recognize jammers and null them out dynamically. Additionally there is a new encrypted M-code that allows military users access to a much harder to jam signal. A smart jammer works by not just putting noise into the GPS signal bands but by mimicking the GPS signal. You don't need much power and can use an antenna array to point at planes like radar systems do. Using an encrypted code would totally prevent someone from broadcasting a fake signal because the receivers would not lock onto it and would instead lock onto the weaker, correct signal. Although encrypted M-code has just come out so I doubt Ukraine has access to it. Maybe NATO countries will have access but that's not the reality for Ukraine now.


Encrypted GPS jammers/spoofers just use replay attacks. It's very effective.


I would think that the encryption would prevent replay. Galileo's (proposed?) system certain seems to:

* https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/galileos-authentication-al...

Based on:

* https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4082


Naive replay attacks of course won't spoof because of encryption. However, by replaying, it will be harder for the receiver to find the actual good signal amongst masses of inauthentic ones.

If you want to spoof via replay you need to do it subtly and progressively - think by only a few ms, and it only works for a specific target. But that's not what I'm talking about here.


Not exponentially, that would be 2^X


They make the assumption that someone will disrupt it or spoof it. Same for Galileo and GPS. Might be them, might be someone else, but they're so easy and effective to spoof/disrupt that it'd be stupid to assume they could rely on any such system.

They also suspect that other people might make use of it, and that denying its use to those others would be a good idea.


This is legit also because it’s already happening in the sea/boats, but it’s the same for every other position system, maybe they put less trust in Glonass? In this case every states/military should use a hidden/unknown position system because the “official ones” could be hacked.


I don't think that GLONASS, at least the military-grade stuff, can be hacked or spoofed, but since radio frequencies are well-known any adversary can just pump enough noise to make the system unusable. This vulnerability is not limited to GLONASS - any satellite positioning system is vulnerable to "pump too much noise and it's unreadable without space-grade stationary equipment", which is already demonstrated by Iran versus satellite television and radio.


"War, what is it good for, absolutely nothing!"

If the US/UK are so he'll bent continuously crying wolf and not wiling to negotiate NATO expansion (Ukraine will never join because you need a unanimous vote from all members and even Germany would not vote for such an expansion. It's a mute point.) then impose the damn sanctions already. The only ones it really hurts is Europe but that is why the US government wants them isn't it?

The amount of posts on /r/worldnews saying Russia did this Russia did that is incredible. Western propaganda mostly out of anonymous sources is completely drowning out Russian propaganda which is amazing.


[flagged]


The one they put 150,000 troops on the Ukrainian border for. Journalists didn't make that up, so feel free to justify it for some other reason.


OPs entire post history is trolling, with multiple flagged comments, and saying Russia can do no wrong. Not worth doing anymore than down voting and ignoring


[flagged]


Are you related to a certain Iraqi Communications Minister by any chance?


They have allegedly started lobbing shells. [1] You may have to find non US media news sources to see it.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9zusfX8F7o [video]


Who are "they"? The Donbass milita? They have been engaging in various forms of combat with the Ukrainian forces multiple times since the ceasefire in 2015. This is not news. Stop reading and watching garbage media outlets (that, unfortunately, could be applied to all mainstream media of the US and Europe today).


> The Donbass milita? They have been engaging in various forms of combat with the Ukrainian forces multiple times since the ceasefire in 2015

Both sides are indicating an escalation, though who escalated is in dispute. (Though the motive for Ukraine to escalate when Russia has massed troops on their border and on the same day that Russia recognizes the breakaway republics is somewhat obscure, while the motive for Russia-backed separatists to do so is blindingly obvious.)


It's important to know that Ukraine's military has degraded to such a level that paramilitaires and militiais on the Ukraine side frequently run afoul of the government's will. Many of them have a large incentive for more war to happen, or are just batshit insane.

So there's a situation where Ukraine isn't a well defined entity anymore. This is, of course, absolutely great for Russia, but it's very concerning.


You are confusing 2014 Ukraine with 2022 Ukraine. Paramilitaries and militias aren’t really a thing in Ukraine anymore.


No idea. It could be all propaganda or at least I assume it is. As for garbage media, agreed I would have to stop watching all news. All news is mainstream/corporate at this point unless anyone knows of an untainted source.

The invasion in 2014 which is still ongoing were Russian soldiers dressed as separatists and rebels so I suspect we will never see Russia proper.


> They have allegedly started lobbing shells. You may have to find non US media news sources to see it.

It was all over US media yesterday.


Ya but that's not "Russia Proper"... yet.

It's Ukraine and Russian backed Ukraine separatist regions (who are currently evacuating civilians to Russia in expectation of more conflict).


Hitting a school seems a bit of an extreme way to evacuate people. Surely one soldier could enter the classroom and say "Come with me if you want to live".

I do not believe we will ever see Russia Proper. The ongoing invasion from 2014 had/has soldiers dressed as separatists.


School - actually it was kindergarten I think, was hit on Ukrainian side, so that’s unrelated to evacuation in DNR/LNR


The one that is ongoing since 2014, starting with occupied Crimea and parts of Donetsk/Luhansk




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